Carmen is present

This is a very intimate and personal interview with my dearest friend Carmen Kass whom I have known for almost 25 years, talking about modelling, Instagram, personal transformation, the war, and why showing a nipple is the right thing to do… 

Carmen is home in Tallin, Estonia, sitting on her yellow sofa with a huge pop art portrait painting of her face hanging on the wall behind. We are doing this over Zoom, and it's not working very well…her voice is muffled, and the image is blurry. She is vaping on one of those sweet-flavored things that have just engulfed the smoking market (I would compare it to shisha even though I never smoked one)... and so am I. We both complain about how addictive these sugary things are, but her position on it is: “It’s the excuse of ‘The one bad thing I do’.”

The images pop up, and now I can hear her perfectly well. She wasn’t going to move either as that’s where she’s feeling the most comfortable…

Carmen: I mean in the sense of like a habit, you know what I mean? There are things – other bad things - that come up or whatever, but they are not like intentional or knowledgeably initiated. But these are something that you know that is wrong, but you do it anyways.

C: That is Mario. But it's a work by a German artist (Barbara Steinmann) that I saw on Instagram, I liked it, and then they sent it to me, which doesn't happen so often.

C: But I like all those works where I don't look like myself. And especially when it's not pretty. Because I really think that everybody does see things a little differently. And that means that somebody sees it this way. That’s incredibly fascinating to me. Like if you do meditation, then you see yourself in every kind of way.

C: So it's nice to still to see the side that is maybe not the most pleasant to our eye or...  Yeah - of course - you have untalented people, too, but it's still interesting to see those perspectives.

C: Exactly. Somebody did something else with it and created a little more out of it in that sense. But it's also because…So I got it, and it's a nice gift. And because my walls were empty at the time. So I put it up despite not liking the idea of having my own face up on my wall staring at myself at all times.

C: I really didn't think so much then about liking what I did. I just did it, and I did it the best way I could; I understood what I was supposed to do... So in a way, the same today. But is there a difference? There is a difference. But besides anybody being able to click and a lot of people trying to be photographers and maybe even getting a chance while they're not so great from quickly looking at it or something...  You wonder why? But there are, I think, really good ones too.

C: Yeah, I still do it. But the one difference is that now I do think about that. Do I like it? You know and... I think there are different experiences. There are aspects that I like, and there's aspects that I don't. But all in all, I do it, so... (laughing) There is something to it that brings me back to it, you know, in a way.

C: It's still the creation. Doing something cool. That's what makes me want to go for it. But not only of course, there is the financial side as well for different things... So... (thinking) And what I do is I trust my agents first, most of all…I ask them always to tell me. Who is it? Why is it good? Why should I do it? Because to me this is how I grew up in this business. That’s what the agent was doing and giving me constant updates on what is happening deep in that world. And because I do not - in my private life - follow fashion every day, or I don't want to live on Instagram and all of this. It's not a full-time business for me anymore, but it's still my business, so I can zap in and out of it too.

C: Yeah. Principally. (Carmen is talking to her dog.)

C: It's more just to have a presence because, unfortunately, today's fashion world pretty much commands for it. (laughing) Most clients write it in conditions that you post one or two times or whatever… So, for me, it's just literally thought directly of the fashion - in my sense - as working as a model for that presence.

C: When I came back from London, I thought I wanted to quit every social media. But then I started thinking about it, and the problem is that in being a model, the presence there is sort of asked. So, I thought I will do it, actually, but I will see if I can somehow have the presence without actually being on it every day and zap through it all the time. But just posting - it's not about getting back, but it's keeping that presence. Or I just quit and don't have it. And I don't know how it will affect me. So, I will have to take that risk then. I think Instagram - or in that sense, any other social outlet - is, you can look at it in many ways, but what we're doing there is creating an image of ourselves that we want the world to perceive of us. Some people will make money, and that’s great, but at the end of the day, we share something. And what we're sharing is a story of ourselves. So, what we're showing, that's what we are, I guess, in a way. Or maybe not who We are not, but that's what we want to present ourselves to be. That is a great thing. But unfortunately, what's not great about it is that people don't own up to (laughing) their choices for that. But I am.

C: Do you want to check?

C: Oh my God. I have such a high respect for that. It's insane. It's like having a dog. I know it's a bad comparison and everything, but you at least understand the necessity of always giving attention, being always – always - present for them regardless of where you want to be. Unless you're a little bit separated. But even then, it's like incredible multitasking, like the highest level.

C: Yeah, it's like a story that we present and so it's everybody's choice to present themselves the way they wish which is a great thing,

C: If you pretend to be stupid or super self-obsessed when it's constantly, literally, self-piece every five minutes. But that's okay. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be doing this or that. I'm saying that each person chooses their own outlet, right? The way they want somebody to perceive them. So then when somebody does perceive them that way and says it then they get often hurt and then all kinds of labels start going out and then it's like this is who you're projecting.

C: That's why… Mostly my Instagram is just simply… I'm not getting into too deep subjects in there, or I'm not trying to tell anybody who should do or think what. But it's more about, Okay, this is - in a very small way- how I see the world and want the world to see me.

C: Yeah, I think many things coincided, and life does most of it, right? So I think partially, it’s that… I’ve lived 44 years, and maybe now it's time to contemplate and see and look a little deeper. And the things that you care about and why do you do what you do? Why are you making the money? Why is it that you go to all these parties? Why do you drink, why do you… I don't know, waste your time on things that you don't really want to do and how to make this time that you are here somehow enjoyable? Whatever then that is… of course, everybody's different.

C: To be present, I think. (giggling) I think that's very important. And to be kind… Yeah, I think it doesn't happen all the time, and I am a human, and I get emotional, and people push my buttons, and when I get upset, I'm not necessarily the nicest upset person. (laughing) Even when people push and push and push, I keep trying to not react because I believe that if you can resist the bad energy that's given to you and not react to it, then - it's silly, but - you almost like cancel the negativity and intentionally pass on better energy.

C: Yeah, I did psychedelics.

C: Huh? (laughing)

C: Well, it's a very personal thing in general, right? But absolutely to a certain point…No, but it just simply means that because it's an important thing and it shouldn't not be talked about. (laughing) I am not a professional, so definitely not the person to talk about it thoroughly. I can only talk about my experience somewhat in that sense, but then a lot of that experience is that personal that you don't want to talk about it openly because there are intimate personal things I believe don’t always have to be shared publicly. Some people like to have it all out, and if not, some may judge it to be that you're not vulnerable, but I like the privacy, and when sharing, then everything in the right context in that sense. But in general, yeah, ... I think certain psychedelics we see everywhere now - luckily - that they're doing wonders, and of course, we don't know so much still, but there is also a lot of information available already. A lot of research and science behind it in that sense and - not only science but - ancient beliefs and all of this. So, it's not one-sided; it's actually somehow all coming together...  You cannot say Oh my God, you can't always believe science, nor can you dismiss someone who experiences not proven phenomena, so it’s amazing to see this commingling of science and psychedelics … it just serves to expand our knowledge and perception of ourselves and our universe.

C: I think it has helped me to - psychedelics and also, actually, meditating; mindfulness as well which I've practised now for four years or something - So yeah...  combination. But I think what psychedelics do - it does it faster because you break through your fears quicker because you start seeing yourself. Why do you do what you do? How do you... You sort of, like, observe yourself from a side, in a way. It gives you that possibility to learn how to see that. And then you take it with you to your life, and you also see it, and it makes things just easy. And you don't fight so much about everything. And there's no… “Yeah, you have this good, like, a steady place inside of yourself to go to when things get heated.” But, like I said, it doesn't always work. But the more you practice, and the more you are aware of it, then it gets more and more systematic and you keep doing it, and it feels good. You feel better about things because you're not always reacting to everything and you understand also your past of why a lot of things... I mean, obviously, there's genetics, and there are geographical things and all kinds of influences. Everything matters, right? But it's all intertwined, and it only helps you understand it in order to let it go because otherwise, you're just reacting to some very old perception of something. So to me, psychedelics definitely opened the door to my subconsciousness, but it also clarified that everything locked behind that door

C.: Rules or like a cage…

C: But it doesn't mean you have to rebel against it necessarily. But you just become aware of what it is and how you can best live in that possible society as well. It's also that side. It's not simply, Oh my God, it's all wrong, it's bad, I'm going to change it, but it's also Okay, there are a lot of good things. There are some bad things…It's more like you're not always fighting because to me, it seems like our society is constantly fighting. Competing and fighting and just trying to be richer and better. And you’re like, What's going on?

C: Why are you living, and what are you doing for your own good at the end of the day? Because if you're just running the race and - I'm not saying that everybody has the luxury to do everything -but little things you can do for yourself like meditating for instance or little things that help you to turn more inwards and not be so reactive so we can all live in a better world for that matter.

C: But again. I cannot tell the people That's wrong what you're doing. It's just my perception of what I feel good about.

C: So that...  they're wrong if you believe that life is about enjoying it. Then they are wrong. (laughing) But you see, we all have a base and I think that's maybe a little bit of a problem as well in society. That we've kind of lost like this agreeable moral base somehow because everything is a fight and everything is personal in a disconnected way.

C: Not even pleasure. But yeah, it's like a big picture of it. I've been not drinking for a little while now, for instance, right? And I did it for 2 years some time ago as well. And I felt better than- I think I told you - better than ever. And so I'm trying to do it again. And it's not because it's a trend or it's something that somebody now has to do, but for me, it's because the science behind it -what it tells me how bad it is and how much I'm ruining myself every single day by doing it. And even if you say Oh I just have one glass with the food, you know. Apparently, everything points to different story and it's not good, in any case. I think for myself Okay, I believe this knowledge, right? Some people maybe don’t believe the scientific, whatever, research behind that. But that's fine. I believe it. So, I decide to – I try to live by what is better for me in the sense of my health and my mind and then obviously my surroundings. Because if I'm feeling good, then I can also give good. Otherwise, what energy I have, then that's what I can give, right?

C: I don't know, really. Well, I don't think I would go to politics, to be honest. But never say never. But I'm not sure politics is the place for this kind of promotion. I mean, it should be, but I don't think the system today is fit for that, really. Because we are living the economy thing, and this is what the politics do, and a little bit of...  it's not centred on...  how do I say it...  Politics at the moment - politics is like it's just business, and business, to my mind is built for profit, not for souls nor minds.

C: No, because I think the system is soaked in it.

C: I think many good people have tried. But yes, one can dream of better world.

C: (laughing) Very good platform. Another social media platform to quit even if I'm there rarely.

C: Yeah. But somehow still… I'm reading, this interesting book Behave by Sapolsky, and it mentions how we behave on the emotion of fear, basically. And how we actually - we say we dislike violence, but we're not honest about it. We do like violence, but we like it in a certain context. And he brings really cool examples or little details he points to. If you look at the names of American football teams, they’re all like patriots, Vikings, etc., it's all about fighting, and violence in our hero’s storyline is. And I don't know. There's always a lot of violence in human history, right? But in a certain context, we don't like it. It's interesting. I mean, I'm just reading it, so it's quite fascinating. So... The thing is, we're not really quite honest with ourselves about what we are, and that's why … we do unfathomable things. You know we look at the world today, what's going on, really. Like, Russia and Ukraine are actually in an incredibly bloody and awful war. Seriously? How can we have a better world if we don’t understand or admit what we made of and what we can and want to be?

C: It did. It did make me nervous. And it still does. Yeah. that's the thing. It's like you see it ... I mean I don't think anybody thought it really would happen in a way. Until people started thinking it is happening, but pretty much I think it was unthinkable. If it could happen to them, obviously, it's simple to - for us Estonians - not only think that it can happen to us, but also we have the memory of it already been done. Estonia has had that with Russia, so we understand what's happening, so and I think that's why Estonia is also one of the biggest supporters to Ukraine - considering how small we are. But it's a very strong nationalistic thing in a way. It's hard.

C: Yeah. It's the history of your nation in a sense, but it's more like even like a personal heritage rather. Like a personal history of your ancestors and grandparents and their story is your story too. And it's not so long ago, and you just can't fathom how this can happen again. And that makes me scared too.

C: Yeah.

C: Yes, yes. But that's not even a backup plan. That's like a long-term, long long time dream coming true.

C: 30.

C: 29. 30 is going,

C: Yeah, in general, yeah. I'm always going to be somehow in touch with it, I think. And always will have a place here, but I don't think I necessary will be here most of the time. But I will be here one third of the time, I think, and then… be around the world and then spend some time also in Italy, but still be…yeah, calling Estonia my home.

C: Well, I mean, I don't have lots of friends. I have lots of acquaintances.

C: I've never really been mixing much of a business with friendship. You're rare.

C: But I'm friendly with many people, but it's not like I keep in touch all the time or something. But we get together. Estonia is small, so you get together with groups of people you know and they know someone else and then you chat and you become very acquainted. I don't have nor need that many good friends. One of my friends is a therapist for kids with certain disabilities. Few other people. Pilates teacher, very good friend. A chef, you know (laughing) So it's not necessarily from fashion.

C: Yeah, they look and - of course people are impressed, and people want a piece of you; they’re interested in a good sense, in a good meaning way. When I was younger, I couldn't really appreciate it so much because - like you said - I didn't grow up idolizing anybody, really. There were some interesting people that I was impressed with, but it wasn't like Oh, I want to be like that or I need to meet them or inspire to be someone. I was like, Okay, very cool. Interesting. If I hear something more, cool. But then again, it's quite amazing if somebody appreciates what you're doing and if it's given them something, then it's very pleasant and satisfying as well. You're like, Oh, great, that gave something meaningful to you, you know. It may Be a scent of a perfume I advertised for or other ad I was a face for that may trigger a fond childhood memory for someone of their mother or inspire them to become a fashion designer or a stylist or a model. or other such stories I’ve heard from admirers and greatly appreciate but there is a value in a personal space and I think Estonians are pretty decent in respecting that I think. No they don’t freak out.

C: Well, I walk my dog. (giggling) It's quite pain in ass because normally it's time that I take for myself. And going for a walk with him is also can be for myself, but it's also for him. And because I'm being there, then I'm kind of there with him. So I cannot do other things. It's a good thing, but it took away a time which I normally would do a writing or meditating. And now I tried to do that in the other times, but then it's not so good.

C: It's just observing where you want to go and asking yourself a question also, like, what's next and what are you doing? And if you're doing this, then do this. It's just more being present, trying to be present. It's not easy.

C: Not quite. I trust the world, actually somehow. I don't quite believe that we have this kind of power to completely be in charge of what's going to happen to us. So, I go with the flow and I have this like a thing in my head that everything is exactly how it has to be.

C: Yeah. And then I work with that.

C: Yeah.

C: It is hard. It is hard. It's something you have to constantly remind yourself.

C: I love that.

C: I mean, this is what I do most of the time. So I walk the dog, I come home, I read, I write, I contemplate, I speak to friends, I go for a walk again and I eat.

C: But of course I have the luxury, right? So we do have to remember that a lot of people don't have this luxury to say I'm not going to do much, I'm going to do these things because most people have to go to work to just get the meal on the table. So that's something to definitely keep in mind, obviously. But then I think this is something that maybe we should puzzle about, contemplate about, like why is this society like that? Is it really the only solution?

C: Because they don't understand that taking the time, they would actually enjoy it at the end. It may feel awkward, it's something that we're not used to, but if they would be given opportunity to do that, I think - and understand it - then they would choose it too, yeah. But yeah. It’s complex.

C: Like, I think Alan Watts, said you never get there, actually. If it's always tomorrow, then when you get to tomorrow, your thought will be the same - tomorrow. So, you will never actually reach a destination in a way.

C: I think Alan Watts if I'm not wrong, but I think so. Okay, something to that thought. What matters is now. What matters is to do your best in this moment towards your goal. Because then you do something that you want to achieve, then you do it with passion; then you do it with, you know. Instead of just doing it because you have to because you have to pay the bill.

C: As a human, we don't. I think in our purest nature, as human beings, we don't need much. Yes. But a little bit of luxury obviously is good, and I think we all could have that. (giggling) But yeah, I mean but the world we live in, we do need much because we live in this crazy consumption world and the information is just flowing in and out and we never stop to see what we are. What are we doing? What are we feeling? What are we? It’s a choice. But that's why I hope humans will go to more of enjoying life instead of just chasing something. But I don't know how that is executable.

C: We're very lucky. Yes, we worked hard for it. But we're also very lucky. But I think with the luck there is - a little bit that too somehow - that I think everybody gets lucky moments, but sometimes they don't recognize it, and that's also meant to be that way. So, they got something to learn from that. And when you're lucky, you also have to be careful, and it's way difficult in other ways.

C: But wait, emotional state of mind (laughing) The other day, when I went to London. It's just funny. Because yeah, I try to be very calm and kind of stable. I try not to get triggered, and so on. But sometimes it's just that everything goes in the wrong place and goes and goes and goes, right? And then this girl in front of me in the plane, where we're already sitting like 2 hours, she like puts her feet under her seat reaching out to my side, right? But you know it happens, so I kindly check it with my feet to push it back a little bit so she would notice. And she pushes back but strongly. And I'm like, Okay. Okay, okay. So I think, what to do? So, I go to tell her I'm like, Excuse me, excuse me. I try to get her attention, and she just ignores me. And then she gives this look to her friend who sits next to her. And I'm like, Really? And so I'm like, I push my feet out, and I just stretch them to the limit and...  She just kicks me. But I had really strong PRADA boots, combat boots on.

C: And I'm like, did she just totally hit me? So, I lean over, I pull away, and I'm like - it was pretty strong kick - and I lean over again, and I'm like, Excuse me. And she like ignored, and then I was like - what was circling in my head, I mean correlations that we can pull... - In my head it was like this is like fucking Russia. It's like coming to occupy your territory and then not communicating with you, right? And then I kicked back, right? I couldn't stop myself. I was like, this is not... I need to get my attention somehow, right? It's like you can't just let her roll over you like this. And then I kick her back, and she turns around, and she says, Give me a break! And the analogy was that basically, Russia went to Ukraine to destroy and occupy, and then Ukraine pushed back, and Russians are like, Give me a break! And I'm like, really? Give you a break? (laughing) And then she stopped. And then that was that. But that's the thing. Even though I tried to be calm, in certain situations where you just like pulling, it wasn't right that I kicked her back. But it's like she's not reacting. You're trying to get her attention; she gets aggressive, and then what are you doing? Pull back and be like Okay, take my space? No big deal? No, you fight back, but then you become exactly that what you are fighting against. There has to be another way.

C: And while your own knees are hurting or whatever. There’re so many people who are - I'm sure she's not maybe a bad person, but she was - in her mind, oh whatever.

C: Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, I've been selfish in my life, but that triggered me because it's mean. Yeah, it's mean to other people around you. And I think, you know. And then that triggers that meanness in other people, too. Like, in that sense, it triggered it in me. You know, we all have mean and good inside, I think. Both sides. But how do you control it? So that's why it's like it's so important how you treat people around you because it triggers others. Your emotions trigger others. So, the impact is so big.

C: Literally.

C: Because she kicked me first, right? So, she started, like, a violent act, actually, right? I don't know. It just makes no sense, right? She took her right to be to invade my space without my consent.

C: No, it ended there. After I kicked her back and she said Give me a break! and I ironically asked in return if I should give her a break. Then it ended there. That’s it.

C: This was not my roll. It was like, no. Wow! - I don't know - back in the day, it was so easy to travel somehow. And today, it’s so many rules and regulations and everything...  And then cancellation and all this. And sometimes the weather, too. (giggling) But it's just annoying. It's sort of not worth it, in a way. But in a sense, like, when you think about it Oh, my God, I don't want to go through it, but at the end of the day, once you already make the decision to commit, then you just go with it and you're like Okay, I'm doing this. So it's no point in getting stuck on it... This sucks. Fuck this. Fuck. Terrible. I hate this. Because you're just making yourself worse.

C: Really? I'm glad you liked it. Yeah, it was very fun. It was fun. It was super-fast, which is - for me - always great. And I think it was also great for others. And it worked. So, it was super.

C: Seriously? Why is that? But now, men can never shoot a naked woman? What the hell?

C: I always am. I haven't taken that many nudes. My first time I did it – it was about really making the decision to do it nude because, for a long time, I didn't do it because I didn't feel comfortable.

C: And I’m a really good poker face.

C: I think that's my biggest trait.

C: I overcome myself because I don't want to be in these clichés because I don't think it's okay to also not be able to show a nipple. I don't think there's anything embarrassing about it. And it can be provocative. Yes, okay. Maybe certain magazines, certain ways, certain things. But I think it shouldn't be ashamed or it shouldn't be shamed or like, how do you...  controlled. I don't think it should be controlled. I think it's the most natural thing - and also sexuality. So, I don't think it has to be controlled in such a way. I think it should be normalized. That we shouldn't be ashamed or…

C: ... it has changed, definitely.

C: Thank you... And it is about the body. And my body is my body. I'm sure there are people who don't like this body, and there are people who like other bodies, but it shouldn't be like... So what? And why are we hiding? So, when I'm in the picture - even if I'm a little bit uncomfortable, I don't think I have the nicest body; this could be this - and with the whole world of plastic surgery today, it's so easy to think, Okay, I got to do something. But then it's like - I don't know - in a way, I cannot be bothered. And I don't know. It's interesting how my body changes. And it's okay. And I don't want to start feeling that it's despicable or it's something bad. So, I tell myself Okay, this is what it is, and it's beautiful enough - for enough people and for myself - beautiful enough that I can live with it. It's healthy. I'm healthy. I treat myself well. But it's everybody's choice and likeness, whatever. Some like it; some don't. So what?

C: I think, like, centeredness. I think when you see a person who is centred and confident enough and don't constantly try to prove. I think that's sexy. Yeah. I think centeredness.

C: I find all kinds of different images sexy (laughing) You have stuff from porn to all kinds of things. And I think in every genre, every place, you find something sexy. But for me, it really depends…If I want sexy, like familiar sexy - that is not necessarily like sexy hot that turns me on - but it's like beautiful. And it can be very natural and light and black and white and something - I don't know - like Peter Lindbergh's moody, a little bit dark, but pure in a way.

C: I’ll skip that (laughing)

C: I never really like these celebrations of things. I somehow don't get it. It's always someone like Okay, somebody tells the story, and now we all are doing something for that day, but at the same time. Yeah, people do it, and it's fun, and it's a tradition. But I never valued these things. So, my special maybe extra attention... That could be any day. But what would I do? Yeah. Too personal, I think.

C: I have more pop art.

C: I collect art. All kinds of art. Whatever I like. Like this one... it says olla. By Marta Vaarik.

C: Yeah, but it says Olla and at the same time it says Hea. Olla means to be, and Hea means good. I don't think it was initially her idea, but that's how it all turns out. But maybe it was, so. It doesn't matter, but that's what I see in it.

C: Yes. She's Estonian. Olla is to be.

C: And hea - H-E-A - is good.

C: So...  To be good.

I think Simba was just showing you his dick. (Carmen’s dog just walked past the computer camera)

C: He was!

C: Hilarious.